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TheShadowlord
RE: Go Germany

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Tuesday July 24, 2012 2:40 AM
1. Vestigial tails. I don't know enough about the medical complications of doing this to have a definite opinion, but I can't imagine that removing bits of bone is entirely unproblematic. But in theory, cosmetic surgery to remove gross deviations from the baseline is entirely different than cosmetic surgery to cause deviation from the baseline.


2. "My rule of thumb: I'll accept any society that bans all circumcision IF they first ban the forcible assignment of genitals to intersex infants."
I disagree. I agree that forcing kids into predefined sexual roles is bad, but I don't see banning one ill should be the requirement for banning another. Ideally both should be banned, but let us be glad that one is and work towards the other.

3. This is not Germany bashing Jews or Muslims. With the collective guilt over the Holocaust, there's no way they'd do something like this on those grounds. What they are banning is a practise that causes unnecessary pain in children with little or (probably) no medical benefit.
They are protecting children who cannot decide for themselves at this point. This is protecting children, not bashing cultures.

It's odd how every time some unpleasant practise, be it FGM, male circumcision, arranged/forced marriages, whatever, is banned by a government there are people who complain that it's racist/anti-religion, totally ignoring that the point is to protect people.
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I feel happy...I feel happy!

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 Message #341103 - This was a reply to message #341099
Dogma75
RE: Go Germany

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Sunday February 10, 2013 3:42 AM
As I am back again, I am rummaging around in the forum and stumbled over this thread. Okay it's a bit old but I am astonished about some of the comments that were wrote. Some of you may know that I am German. This topic moved through our media up and down and I followed it from the start. Because of that I can't and won't accept some of the comments that were made here because they show (us) Germans in a light that isn't correct.

Quote from Avenging_Angel on 07.18.2012 11:56 AM:
"All I see is another example of thinly-veiled legislation aimed at minorities Western Europe is uncomfortable with - Muslims and Jews in particular."


Germany - the BRD - is very liberal when it comes to immigrants. We have religious freedom, they get social help when they get here, we even invited several millions in the 50ties and 60ties to come to Germany because we needed labour force. The majority of them and their children - some of them in the 3rd generation - are still living there.
They even don't have to visit the religious education hours in school. We have an extra subject that is called ethic. Don't forget that we still are a Chrsitian country with two strong persuasion: Catholic and Protestant.

A court in Cologne did decide this. But why? Because after the WW 2 we passed new laws here in Germany. One is called Grundrechte / Fundamental rights in the German Constitution. One of these fundamental rights is "Recht auf k├Ârperliche Unversehrtheit" in English: "Right of physical integrity". With that fundamental right the baby is protected right when it pops out of the mama...;-)
One big problem here in Germany is that the circumcision isn't made by doctors and it isn't steril. It is made by layman mostly and what happens when some noobs do this...

This whole bullshit went up and down our German media. They wanted to invent new laws, so that the Jews and Muslims could cut away the damned thing and so on, and so on...and some even said that the German are big fu..... foreign haters...Hey, we are liberal, we even allow Muslims to build thier mosque here (try to build a church in Turkey... ;-) )....so please don't call us Germans xenophobic...It's not okay!!!

Btw we even have Turkish / Muslim / Jewish politicians... ;-)

Quote from Nix on 07.19.2012 3:47 AM
Uh huh...another example of Germany caving to the reactionaries. It's amazing how quickly a country can go from owning most of Europe to lying on it's back.


Nix I wouldn't call Germany reactionary. After the war Germany did much for the stability of Europe and the two political blocks. Without Kohl there could be a war when the GDR and Russia collapsed. This couldn't happen if the Germans were reactionary...

Quote Avenging_Angel on 07.22.2012 11:18 AM:
I'm going to have to stick with "Germany doesn't like religious minorities"


This isn't about minorities! It's about the safety of a baby / child and there are exceptions when it comes to religion. What we wanted was that this doesn't happen in an alley...and a discours if it is not better that the child decides later when it is more mature...

To come to an conclusion. All of them knew that they immigrated to a country that has Christian roots. That has a constitution that is based on human rights. You can't change the fundamental rights on which your society is based. Imagine some ppl come over to the USA and want to change things that written down in your constitution...

So please don't call us Germans the way you did without knowing what and why it happened

[[Edited by Dogma75 on Sunday February 10, 2013 10:03 PM]]

[[Edited by Dogma75 on Monday February 11, 2013 5:29 PM]]

[[Edited by Dogma75 on Monday February 11, 2013 5:31 PM]]
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"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato....
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 Message #341655 - This was a reply to message #341103
Unbeliever
RE: Go Germany


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Tuesday February 12, 2013 6:06 AM
Just stumbled upon this one myself, thanks to Dogma reviving it. So, obviously I have to throw my two cents in.


QUOTED One big problem here in Germany is that the circumcision isn't made by doctors and it isn't steril.


This is a great reason to ban something. If a procedure isn't being done under safe conditions, then it absolutely shouldn't be done. And that's about the end of me agreeing with anything.


QUOTED It's odd how every time some unpleasant practise, be it FGM, male circumcision, arranged/forced marriages, whatever, is banned by a government there are people who complain that it's racist/anti-religion, totally ignoring that the point is to protect people.


I get that your point is not to compare those three things to each other, but that their defense is often based on religion. However, nobody here is arguing in favor of arranged marriages or female mutilation. The former is a complete removal of a person's rights as well as emotionally destructive. The latter is physically destructive, often with effects that can lead to emotional problems. I'm not a religious person, so I have no reason to defend either of those despicable things. But I'd like to think I'm a sensible person, and that means I'm not going to oppose something just because it's tied up with religious practices.

I'm circumcised. Yes, the decision was taken out of my hands when I was an infant. I don't have any trauma to recall, didn't have to labor with the decision to subject myself to physical pain and recuperation for the sake of cosmetics. I'm sure I cried when it happened, but I can't possibly care about that at this point in my life. I like the way it looks. It certainly doesn't cause me any problems, and the bulk of the data suggests it's a little bit healthier for me to be this way. At this point in my life, having this decision taken out of my hands as a child (as all the decisions of my very young childhood were) has caused me zero harm while benefiting me in a (ahem) handful of ways.

If anyone wants to seriously suggest what happened to me was "barbaric", then they're welcome to. And I am welcome to scoff at them.
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2011 was way more apocalypsey than 2012.
 Message #341671 - This was a reply to message #341655
Avenging_Angel
RE: Go Germany


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Tuesday February 12, 2013 10:51 AM
QUOTED  Germany - the BRD - is very liberal when it comes to immigrants. We have religious freedom, they get social help when they get here, we even invited several millions in the 50ties and 60ties to come to Germany because we needed labour force. The majority of them and their children - some of them in the 3rd generation - are still living there.


We have religious freedoms and social help here, but that certainly doesn't stop a lot of racism both in government and on a personal level.

QUOTED  One big problem here in Germany is that the circumcision isn't made by doctors and it isn't steril.


Like Oobie said, that's completely wrong and any surgical procedures should be administered by a registered medical professional. I can't speak for over there, but outside of the Orthodox community, most people here have it done at the hospital.

QUOTED  Hey, we are liberal, we even allow Muslims to build thier mosque here (try to build a church in Turkey... ;-) )....so please don't call us Germans xenophobic...It's not okay!!!


Yyyyyyeah... I don't think that allowing people to build worship halls is the only requirement to be counted as not xenophobic. Again, mosques everywhere here in the U.S, plenty of racist fucks around anyway.

QUOTED  Btw we even have Turkish / Muslim / Jewish politicians... ;-)


We do too. Plenty of LGBT politicians, too. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty of biased politicians as well.

QUOTED  This isn't about minorities! It's about the safety of a baby / child and there are exceptions when it comes to religion. What we wanted was that this doesn't happen in an alley...and a discours if it is not better that the child decides later when it is more mature...


Maybe not, but it's a pretty good issue to bring out the bigot in everyone. Anti-semitism and xenophobia, particularly in regards to Muslim immigrants, have been on the rise for the past decade or so. This is somewhat because of economic problems worldwide; in times of economic downturn, people blame minorities for their problems. Greece's issues with the violence of the Golden Dawn party against immigrants and minorities is probably the most dramatic, but you can see it everywhere. Over here, hispanics and Muslims get most of it, but it depends on where you are.

There have been no conclusive scientific studies proving that circumcision, when administered in a safe and sterile environment, does permanent harm to the baby mentally or physically. It is proven to slightly lower the risk of contracting some STDs, including HIV, and many non-religious choose to get it for those reasons. I have never in my life met a circumcised man who felt he had been somehow harmed by the procedure - most of the time when the topic comes up, they either don't have any opinion or prefer it because it's easier to keep clean.
So, without a scientific basis, why would a government pass something that is mainly going to affect two of the most popular scapegoat minorities in Europe?

QUOTED  All of them knew that they immigrated to a country that has Christian roots. That has a constitution that is based on human rights. You can't change the fundamental rights on which your society is based. Imagine some ppl come over to the USA and want to change things that written down in your constitution...


All western countries have Christian roots. Key word there is roots. If they're going to describe themselves as a free, open nation, they can't hide behind that. Those human rights include religious freedoms (within reason) , which no, you can't change.

And I was born here, but you're damn right I want to change some of the things written down in my constitution...

QUOTED  So please don't call us Germans the way you did without knowing what and why it happened


Look, I know the stereotype of dumb Americans who judge everyone first and don't know anything outside their borders is popular, but frankly it's bullshit. I didn't spend two years in the international relations department to not bother doing my research on something before I shoot my mouth off on the internet.

This tirade is somewhat off-topic, but related enough and on a subject unfortunately near and dear to me. You be warned.

The thing is, (I'm sure I'll piss a lot of people off with this, but here I go)... anti-semitism is pretty much endemic to Europe.

Those Christian roots you're so proud of are part of it. The Christian sects that were prevalent in most of these countries were the kind that did not like Jews, Roma, or other "dirty" whites from different religious backgrounds. Muslims were not a significant population at the time, but as they've migrated into Europe, they've been lumped into this group of undesirables. The same attitudes that led to Jews being expelled or put into walled-off ghettos, that led to Roma being banned from camping near towns or being burned out from their campsites were the fuel that the Nazi party's ideologies set fire to.

In a perfect world, WW2 would have solved these problems. In the real world, it eliminated the symptoms but not the cause. The leaders of the Nazi party were arrested or executed, but the underlying, less pleasant parts of society that bred the ideologies remained largely intact. A lot of mid to lower level Nazi members escaped to neutral countries. The notion of invasive, "dirty" immigrants or others leeching off of the pure, good European people stayed, just subdued for a time.

The older generation who lived through the horrors of the war made things different, for a while. Enough people had been horrified by what they saw to want things to change. But, unfortunately, societal attitudes are a hard thing to remedy, and as they're dying out and leaving power, the younger generation begins to express very old attitudes. Couple that with an economic downturn that leaves many unemployed, impoverished, and looking for an easy target... kaboom. Anti-semitic and anti-Muslim incidents have been on a steady increase throughout Europe - yes, including Germany - since 2000.

(This isn't, obviously, me saying everyone in Europe magically is racist. The best comparison for it, really, is homophobia in the U.S; a majority might have it on some level, but the majority is not everyone, and even most of those people won't necessarily act on it. Bad circumstances just tend to bring the worse parts of society to the forefront and make them much louder than usual.)

Not that we're much better over here. Our history of xenophobia is shorter, but not much better. The only thing we have going for us is a generally more diverse population, but synagogues still get vandalized regularly. My nieces and nephews still get taunted in public schools. Hell, mosques probably have it worse, though some of the fervor stirred up by 9/11 is finally dying down... while the economy being in the crapper just makes things worse.

One big powder keg of discontent from a bad world market + centuries of ingrained bias = turning on those who are different. Different color, different religion, different sexuality... we want to blame the other for our problems. Even in the most liberal countries, that ugly little fact still remains, and it will show itself at all levels of society.

[[Edited by Avenging_Angel on Tuesday February 12, 2013 12:40 PM]]
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Dogma75
RE: Go Germany

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Tuesday February 12, 2013 2:17 PM
Now I am quoting myself...

QUOTED  by Dogma75
One big problem here in Germany is that the circumcision isn't made by doctors and it isn't steril. It is made by layman mostly and what happens when some noobs do this...

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
Like Oobie said, that's completely wrong and any surgical procedures should be administered by a registered medical professional. I can't speak for over there, but outside of the Orthodox community, most people here have it done at the hospital.


Only to adjust it: I meant the religious circumcision. All others are still in made by docs under sterile circumstances in a hospital, but I think you all know that I meant it that way... ;-)

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
Yyyyyyeah... I don't think that allowing people to build worship halls is the only requirement to be counted as not xenophobic.

Maybe we should take another angle of view on this one. There are several countries in Europe where the muslim community can't build mosques and where there haven't quite this much rights when it comes to their believes. This may be still a heritage from the wars with the Turks in the late middle ages.
Also we had some ilegal Koran schools which were attached to mosques where children were hidden to teach them in the way of the muslim hardliners. The public authorities had to come down hard on them. The children were hold there against their wills. Also we have compulsory education until the age 15 or 16. Additionally it is hard to explain your people why for example it wasn't allowed to practice the Christian believe in Turkey or build churches there and the muslims believers can build mosques here. It allready has changed and I for myself don't care much for it.

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
Anti-semitism and xenophobia, particularly in regards to Muslim immigrants, have been on the rise for the past decade or so.


That's to easy to describe the problem at least here in Germany. Let's take a look into the fifties / sixties of the last century when Germany didn't have the labour force it needed when the "Wirtschaftswunder" happened. We invited a lot of foreign "Gastarbeiter" / migrant worker from all over. Millions of Italiens, Spaniards, Yugoslavians, Greeks, Turks and others came over to work here. They left their families at home because we and them thought that they would only work for a given time here. But most of them stayed and after some years the brought their families to Germany aswell. The Italiens, Spanish and the Yugoslavians adapted and fitted themselves in society.

The Turks did it only half-hearted. They formed - let's say - some shadow community, had their own tea houses, their back alley mosques (I didn't mean this disrespectfully, it was this way). They wanted to live in their own world with their views which were based on the experiences they made in their homeland. Only that the folks in their homeland moved on and became more liberal were the Turks living in Germany became stoic. They made marriage arrangements often without the agreement of the boys and girls which should be married and so on...They lived after their muslim way (and most still live) their imam and their parents teached them. For example we even have in Berlin one or two Turkish neighborhoods were a magistrate judges over the islamic community. And this is even hard to swallow for me because he has no legal right to do this...

(So don't get this wrong. Many of the Yugoslavians here in Germany are also muslims and they adapted and with adapted I mean they arranged themselves with the life in Germany.)

So why was and is it that way. Let's take a look at the folks which came over to Germany. Most of the them were under or ill educated people which didn't get jobs in their homelands. Some of them couldn't even write or read. How could such people adapt. Surely hard if even.

And I won't start about the problems which come up when Germans and Turkish fall in love with each other because that would take to long. I had collegeau whom was with a Turkish girl and who was threatened with knifes by her brothers because he was no muslim and I had some similar experiences. It's a good example how western and muslim ways of lifes sometimes clashes...

And at last (at least here in Germany) we have to blame our politicians who didn't have the farsight to see that most of the migrant work force would stay in Germany and add their way of life to our cultural multitude. They didn't thought about until the mid-ninties. Migrant workers belong to Germany as the Brezel.... ;-)

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
This is somewhat because of economic problems worldwide; in times of economic downturn, people blame minorities for their problems.
[...]Greece's issues with the violence of the Golden Dawn party against immigrants and minorities is probably the most dramatic, but you can see it everywhere. Over here, hispanics and Muslims get most of it, but it depends on where you are.


The rise of the Golden Dawn in Greece is to be blamed on the European Community. If you take a closer look at the regulations the Greek government got from the triumvirate (advisers from the EU) whom check and checked cost cuts then you will see that this cost cuts only apply to the working force. The ppl there have it realy bad. If you couldn't afford medication or heating you would head to the next safe haven you find. (Not that I find this correct). And as we saw in the days of the rise of the Nazi party here in Germany before WWII this will shepperd the people right into the arms of the right winged political parties. Further the Greek government canceld the right to strikem, called out martial law this week and moved military police in to go against the strikers and thats no joke...oil to the fire...

Also in Hungary and Romania there are right winged political parties in the government and in Hungary there are even old "Nazi" parties on the rise (Arrow Cross Party). It's frightening...

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
All western countries have Christian roots. Key word there is roots. If they're going to describe themselves as a free, open nation, they can't hide behind that. Those human rights include religious freedoms (within reason) , which no, you can't change.

Sure we have this right and it's anchored in the Grundrechte / Fundamental rights. But we also (as I mentioned earlier) the "Recht auf k├Ârperliche Unversehrtheit" in English: "Right of physical integrity". So there is a conflict...

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
There have been no conclusive scientific studies proving that circumcision, when administered in a safe and sterile environment, does permanent harm to the baby mentally or physically. It is proven to slightly lower the risk of contracting some STDs, including HIV, and many non-religious choose to get it for those reasons. I have never in my life met a circumcised man who felt he had been somehow harmed by the procedure - most of the time when the topic comes up, they either don't have any opinion or prefer it because it's easier to keep clean.
So, without a scientific basis, why would a government pass something that is mainly going to affect two of the most popular scapegoat minorities in Europe?

I know this. It's proven. Again it wasn't our government, it was a court who decided this and it was a small court it would have to go through several other instances to become a official guidline.

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
Look, I know the stereotype of dumb Americans who judge everyone first and don't know anything outside their borders is popular, but frankly it's bullshit.


There are two kinds of Americans: the ones who look over the borders and the ones who don't mind to look over the borders. I met both kinds and the second one is tiring to say at least. You can't understand foreigners if you don't take a closer look at them and try to understand them.
Also I don't think you're one of the (as you said) "dumb" ones. (Without insulting anyone)

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
The thing is, (I'm sure I'll piss a lot of people off with this, but here I go)... anti-semitism is pretty much endemic to Europe.

You are right it is rising. And it gives me quite a headache.

If you take a look at the Bosphorus serial murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosphorus_serial_murders) you see that this wouldn't gone so far if this three people hadn't had backup from some folks in German intelligence service and that is sad and troubling. Really sad and beyond belief.
Atm we have two dangerous political currents here in Germany: one is right winged, open to violence, the other radical, militant muslims (Salafi only a few thousand), also open to violence...

Right winged political parties pop up all over Europe. Some are even in the governments of some EU countries...

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
One big powder keg of discontent from a bad world market + centuries of ingrained bias = turning on those who are different. Different color, different religion, different sexuality... we want to blame the other for our problems. Even in the most liberal countries, that ugly little fact still remains, and it will show itself at all levels of society.


I think here in Europe it is based on two pillars. First the thightening of the EU in political ways. The EU had some corruption scandals, it wants to regulate everything which frightens the ppl, the EU citizens can't decide directly and we can't vote for the commissars which head the various departments but who made all the urgent decisions.
Second the economic crises which the european citizen has to bear but the activators (banks, fonds) get out of it unharmed. The ppl feel unheared and without rights.

QUOTED  by Avenging_Angel
Those Christian roots you're so proud of are part of it. The Christian sects that were prevalent in most of these countries were the kind that did not like Jews, Roma, or other "dirty" whites from different religious background


I am catholic and I am not proud of it. Fact is I wanted to resign but I am a bit lazy. Here you need quite a lot of formulars and get to the County Court. It's a shame and it's also one of the bigger problems here in Germany: The combination of the Church and the state...They are not clearly devided...They even get money from me through the church tax...
The Chrsitian believe has it's fair share on much of the bad things that happened throughout the centuries. From the middle ages to the the Third Reich where they accepted Hitlers politics and doings. So they (imho) they have no legal right to claim anything.

[[Edited by Dogma75 on Tuesday February 12, 2013 2:19 PM]]
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"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato....
"This is where we fight. This is where they die." - King Leonidas in 300
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